Electric vehicles, whether they be cars, trucks, or boats, are often subject to the public’s misconceptions. It’s always the way with new technology. The very nature of electric boats was the topic of a recent speech from Donald Trump. Are you safer standing on a sinking electric boat, or jumping in the water with a shark?
The speech was delivered at Trump’s rally in Nevada on Sunday. You can watch the clip on Twitter to get the full gist, but it’s a fairly straightforward question. “What would happen if the boat sank from its weight… and you’re in the boat, and you had this tremendously powerful battery… and the battery’s now underwater, and there’s a shark that’s approximately ten yards over there?” asked Trump. “Do I stay on top of the boat and get electrocuted, or do I jump over by the shark and not get electrocuted?”
So what is the answer? Should you stay with the boat, or go for the shark?
Trump: It must be because of my relationship with M.I.T., very smart, I say, what would happen if the boat sank, and you have this tremendously powerful battery, and the battery is now underwater…. Do I get electrocuted or do I jump over by the shark? pic.twitter.com/zAUkDoOBD3
— Acyn (@Acyn) June 9, 2024
Real Talk
I’ll answer this in two ways. First philosophically, then scientifically. Put another way—first with vibes, then with physics.
Let’s say you’re on your electric boat and it starts sinking. You feel the water lapping at your ankles, and you spot a shark swimming a short distance away. If you believe yourself to be at imminent risk of electrocution on the boat, you should absolutely go near the shark instead. That is, if you know you’re about to be electrocuted, that’s certain death. The shark might be nice, and may have zero interest in eating you. Thus, based on probabilities, go hang with the shark.
Of course, this assumes that staying on the boat is certain death. Science and engineering would suggest that’s not the case.
If your electric boat sinks, that really sucks. But it’s unlikely to cause you a serious electric shock. Engineers who design electric boats are smart enough to plan for this contingency. They know the boat is going to get wet. They know it might get too wet. Thus, batteries are typically well-sealed against water ingress, and heavily protected against damage. Ultimately, the same applies to your electric car, if you end up drowning it in a lake.
Indeed, last time Trump brought this up in 2023, Heatmap did the research. Multiple electric boat manufacturers confirmed their batteries are rated to water immersion specs suitable for submariners, or close to it. Indeed, Arc Boats notes that their packs are completely watertight. Their batteries are designed to be safe during sinking. Connectors are highly rated and the company claims to have run all sorts of safety tests on worst case scenarios, including where water might come into contact with high-voltage areas.
Even if the battery was heavily damaged and suffered water ingress, that wouldn’t necessarily put you in immediate danger. If you drop a big battery into the water at the beach, for example, it doesn’t immediately electrocute every fish in the whole ocean. Fundamentally, when submerged, the electrical current wants to flow from one terminal of the battery to the other. It will take the easiest possible path through the water to do so. That’ll usually be the shortest possible distance from one terminal to the other. If you’re in the water a few feet away, the electrons aren’t going to take a hike out of the battery’s negative terminal, come and zap you, and then go back to the positive terminal. They’re going to take—quite literally—the path of least resistance.
It all comes down to the conductivity of water. Salty sea water is more conductive than the human body. Thus, if the battery’s terminals were exposed under water, current would typically want to flow from one terminal to the other through the water itself. Unless you were right by it, you probably wouldn’t be in immediate danger. You’d want to avoid being between the terminals, lest you get in the way of the current path.
illustration: Torch
One situation where this can change slightly is in fresh water. This situation can be a little bit more dangerous. Fresh water is typically less conductive than the human body. Thus, if you’re near the battery, current may prefer to flow from one terminal to another through you instead of through the less-conductive water itself. Don’t get too close, and don’t position yourself between the terminals, and you’re probably going to be okay.
The phenomenon of getting shocked in a body of water is typically called electric shock drowning. The combination of electric shocks and water is a poor one. You might survive a given electric shock on land, but if it incapacitates you and you slip beneath the water, you can be in much greater danger.
This phenomenon has a long history— after all, electric boats are not the first to use electricity. Most powered boats have some kind of battery system on board, and many even use inverters to generate AC power for running appliances. Some boats are also capable of being hooked up to shore power—usually an AC grid feed when they’re at the dock. All of these can pose risks. Indeed, you’d be well advised never to swim at a marina—a faulty shore power system could electrocute you far more easily than a well-sealed electric boat battery.
In any case, if there’s a battery with exposed terminals in the water, you probably don’t want to sit on it or near it. But it still probably won’t pose an immediate electrocution risk. What’s most likely happening is that the battery is filling with water, which is short circuiting a ton of cells in the pack to each other, all at once. The battery will be dumping energy into the water, creating lots of bubbling as it splits the water through electrolysis. The cells will also probably release toxic gases and the battery may catch fire. That’s worth watching out for, but it’s not an electrocution risk, and it’s not immediate. As an example, we’ve seen a Tesla catch fire underwater—but nobody was electrocuted in the event.
An electric boat merely sinking doesn’t pose much electrocution risk. Just get off it and swim to safety. You obviously aren’t driving it back to the dock at this point anyway.
illustration: Torch
However, if your electric boat hits rocks or crashes with another craft, that’s more likely to be dangerous. Your prime concern should be avoiding a damaged battery or high voltage wiring. Industry convention has this clearly marked in orange. High voltage lines could be exposed, or the battery housing could be cracked open. A modern battery’s management system will typically shut down as much of the battery as possible in this event. However, even when “shut down” the battery still contains a great deal of energy which can be discharged through the water or damaged wiring.
In these scenarios, you want to get clear of loose wiring and battery components. If you feel any tingles, that’s a great motivator to get away from whatever’s causing it. It’s unlikely, but a broken or damaged craft could have high voltage cabling coming in contact with metal hardware, like railings or ladders. If you grabbed such a railing, you might be effectively in circuit with one terminal of the battery. if you then lowered yourself in to the water, you might form a circuit with the other terminal, and put yourself in harms way. For this reason, Formula 1 drivers are advised to jump clear of their cars in the event of a bad accident. You’d be well advised to do the same if your electric boat was badly damaged.
Credit: Marcelo Cidrack
Ultimately, if your electric boat is merely sinking, you don’t need to flee. You’re safer near it than near a hungry shark. If your boat is badly damaged, though, you’ll want to avoid any damaged wiring or battery modules and try to jump clear of the wreck.
Still, the decision you make ultimately comes down to your own beliefs and personal preferences. For Trump, it was an easy call. “If there was a shark, or you get electrocuted?” he postulated. “I’ll take electrocution every single time. I’m not getting near the shark.” And that’s fair enough.
Image credits: Arc Boats, eDyn, Marcelo Cidrack via Unsplash license, Drawings by Lewin Day
OK. What we have here is one crazy fuck. Like a complete douche bag imbecile.
Convicted on all 34 counts. Belongs in prison. All there is left to say is fuck this idiot…
Sorry but fuck all his brain dead supporters too.
So there’s this one old guy, who at least manages to keep his shit together, and then there’s this other old guy who obviously cannot keep his shit together. Do I vote for the first old guy, even though he’s old and boring and doesn’t prove his masculinity by punching down? Or do I vote for the second old guy, who talks so loudly that everything he says must be true?
I’d choose the bear.
As long as it’s not a Grizzly, or Polar bear.
“I Would Treat You Better than Bears or Men”, says Sasquatch
Of all the craziness in whatever it was he said, perhaps the craziest is the contention by his (apparent) attempt to make fun of them that EV boats are a big thing or will be soon and that’s from me, someone who converted an old sit-inside kayak to electric. Fine (if expensive) for small displacement hulls, but the planing hulls popular with recreational boaters require far too much power and don’t have the surplus buoyancy, plus the cost is outrageous. I designed a small power boat and thought of building it EV. Besides a decent size battery weighing too much, the cost of the battery alone would have been more than double a gas powered (4-stroke 60hp outboard) version of the entire boat altogether.
Is it just me and my wishful thinking, or do some of the people behind him start to look confused halfway through this derailment of thought, like they’re finally questioning if Trump’s all there? I mean, at some point some of these people must surely ask themselves if they heard him right, like when he “joked” about not caring about his supporters, only their vote. Like, certainly some of them must’ve realised that was him being the most honest he’s ever been, right?
Right?
Please let it not be wishful thinking. Let there be brain cells in those peoples heads, fighting for their survival.
I think the primary thought going through everyone’s head was, “It’s a friggin’ 110 degrees out, and we are standing in direct sunlight right now. I bet the prostate doctor’s office has the a/c cranking…”
The irony is that a sinking boat being circled by a shark is a pretty great metaphor for the political situation here.
How on earth did this brain-scrambled fartsniffer think we recharged the eels, anyway? Or started a conventional boat, for that matter? Yelling at it? Cramming amphetamines up its intake? Whacking it with a rolled-up magazine with his face on it?
I’m actually curious at the alleged “logic” of this line of thinking because there genuinely isn’t any, especially given the fact that marine batteries are readily available all over the place.
As all good intelligent Americans know, we throw our used car batteries into the ocean to recharge them, this is just the ultimate final form of recycling nobody has thought of yet.
Yep. Don’t listen to the AutoZone sheeple. Hurl ’em straight into the salty depths where they belong.
(Sidenote: Gotta love one of Google’s original automated-answer fails. https://www.thedrive.com/tech/39540/google-tells-search-users-its-a-good-idea-to-throw-car-batteries-into-the-ocean)
They can’t ever stop me, it’s completely safe and legal. I’d much rather the eels get a good charge than a measly $10 core charge return. Nature must heal, used car batteries are the solution.
We’re creating whole new reefs for recharging the eels! Truly living in the future.
There’s also such a thing as underwater arc welding, which involves hundreds of amps.
Some of the baddest badasses are underwater welders.
They’d have to be.
Especially if they can mirror weld underwater.
I think your trump capacitor has been fried by a surge of musk. Might want to take a holiday.
When a big giant eel takes your hand for a meal…
…that’s a moray.
I’m going to take a sideways tack on this, because sharks have amazing senses to pick up not only disturbances in the water, but tastes and scents as well. And while the boat sinking might initially give signals not unlike a creature in distress, the chemical cocktail of batteries and debris (especially if the batteries rupture) isn’t likely to leave pleasing tastes in the water. So the shark is probably going to nope the heck out of there. Might as well swim free, the shark is probably going to be more interested in leaving the scene.
Serious answer is that you should stay on the sinking boat for as long as possible so that you don’t have to tread water just yet. Exhaustion and hypothermia in many places are going to be your enemies while you await rescue.
The less serious answer is that you can use the sinking electric boat to kill the shark, making the water safe for you. Bang the side of the boat with the most batteries until the shark attacks. It will bite the batteries and get burnt to a fiery crisp while you watch and laugh. You will have to resist the natural urge to teabag the shark as it dies because then you’ll also become a crispy critter.
Edit: I should have mentioned that people have successfully escaped sunken/sinking submarines despite the presence of massive batteries nearby. The real danger from the batteries is that they tend to produce very nasty toxic gasses when exposed to saltwater, meaning that you could suffocate before you get the chance to escape.
My first thought, as soon as I heard the battery/shark scenario, was a confused, “Wait, haven’t we had electric battery boats for at least a century now in the form of submarines?” I mean, sure, they’re not full time battery boats and when they’re using the batteries they’re usually not surface boats, but all the supposedly dangerous elements have been smooshed all together like this for a very long time and I’ve never heard anybody railing against them.
“You will have to resist the natural urge to teabag the shark as it dies because then you’ll also become a crispy critter.”
Oh sure, like I have that kind of self control.
“The less serious answer is that you can use the sinking electric boat to kill the shark, making the water safe for you. Bang the side of the boat with the most batteries until the shark attacks. It will bite the batteries and get burnt to a fiery crisp while you watch and laugh.”
EXACTLY. Have none of you seen the documentary Jaws II?!?
The Autopian is on the exact same page as me this week. After work I am on my way to pick up an old bass boat that will be converted into an electric boat. I NEED the trailer under the boat, so gotta buy the boat too, and may as well have some fun with it!
So when are those Torch illustrations making their way onto some merch?
Man, we really jumped the shark with this one.
First note, you are *technically* accurate that electrocution would end in certain death, as that’s the definition of electrocution. Any dance with electrons that leaves you alive is just an electrical shock.
I know, I’m fun at parties (I teach high voltage safety as part of my job, cause we’re making all the transit buses EV).
I’m waiting on the opinion of a commenter who’s job is shark safety, since you’re clearly biased
Not my job, but I *have* dove with 9 different species of sharks, on over a dozen occasions, both in aquariums and open water, during the day and at night.
Most sharks don’t usually feed during the day, they prefer dusk and dawn. Also, the vast majority of shark species don’t attack humans.
You got me, out here shilling for [LOCAL POWER COMPANY]
Better question: How long until Trump “jumps the shark” and falls out of the zeitgeist? I’m so sick of even hearing that dipshit’s name. Him and Elon both. Just go the hell away, the pair of you.
Well, we have a cool science discussion going on here. I sure hope someone brings up politics and ruins eve-SHAAAAAADDDDDDUUUUUUPPPPPPP!
Are you serious?
Absolutely
Everyone wants to watch a chimpanzee with a flamethrower….
All the fearmongering about EVs and “well, what if they catch fire?” seems to forget the alternative is an easily ruptured plastic tank full of extremely flammable liquid that becomes explosive when mixed with air in the right ratio. Fortunately, it’s extremely volatile and LOVES mixing with air any chance it gets. Nope, nothing could possibly ever go awry there.
Boats catching fire from fuel leaks in below deck/enclosed areas is hardly rare. Hence why they’re required to have powered ventilation (aka bilge blower), but that’s assuming this ventilation works, and is actually used properly. Most consumer-level boats are purely weekend toys and treated/maintained as such, and most captains of these recreational boats have no effing idea what they’re doing, so those are both big assumptions.
I used to work summers at a marina through HS and college. I easily saw a dozen engine covers go WHOOOOMP and blow off from built up fumes being ignited by shitty/arcing spark plug wires, loose high-amp connections at the battery or starter, any number of things really. Usually, this doesn’t burn the boat down. It makes a funny noise, blows the hatch cover off, and makes the captain shit their shorts, but then usually kind of “blows itself out”. Sometimes the carburetor would be burning like a candle, but that’s about it. One time though, the fuel leak must have been much larger, or there was a lot of standing gas in the bilge, and the boat burned to the waterline.
The biggest concern with EV battery fires is that lithium batteries are oxidizers that produce a LOT of readily available oxygen during combustion. Making them difficult snuff out. Add in compromised packs re-igniting with little to no warning days to weeks later.
Liquid fuels are incredibly dangerous, but they’re a known quantity. “The devil you know” and all that.
We’ll figure it all out one day just as we did with other emerging technologies, but for now, the worry is fairly justified.
We should start to see new battery chemistries that solve that problem. Here is a quote from C4V
“Superior capabilities: By using the in-house patented C4V’s BMLMP technology, LiSER enables the highest voltage of any Li-ion cells at 3.9 Volts. The inherent oxygen deficient BMLMP not only augments battery safety but also delivers a voltage that is at least 20% higher than the LFP formulations currently widely being used in the market.”
C4V has a battery factory in New York and have done a lot of work with companies like MARTAC who build military unmanned vessels. These types of battery chemistries should make boating safer as well as be applicable to many other uses were safety is a priority.
The devil I know floats on water, produces poison smoke, gets moved around by most usual fire fighting methods and is generally no fun at sea.
Battery fires suck too. Bigly.
I think the issue with a ICE catching fire vs a EV is that the EV require crap tons of water to hopefully put out the fire if it does ignite vs an ICE. As gasoline or diesel are not going to magically reignite once the fire has been put out (diesel is not even flammable and gasoline it is the vapors) while with batteries you can have a chemical reaction that you think you have put out the fire but you may not have and it could reignite at a later time.
Well, if there’s one thing you’ve got if you’re in a sinking boat it’s crap tons of water.
Hah true but yay more chemicals dumped into the ocean. Though not sure what is worse for the ocean a EV boat sinking or an ICE haven’t looked into the studies for that.
I’d be very surprised if it isn’t the ICE boat. Lots of oily fluids, whereas the stuff in the electric boat is mostly water soluble and will rapidly dissipate. The sea is big, so as long as stuff mixes, it’s not going to do any real harm.
Couple notes:
Vapors are what burn on anything. For literally anything to burn, it must reach a vapor state. This includes solid objects like wood, that’s why it takes so much heat to get good hardwood to ignite, it needs to be warmed enough to start letting off vapors.
Diesel does this as well, but it’s Flashpoint is +52 degrees Celsius. Gasoline, by comparison, is about -42 Celsius. Methanol lands in the middle around +11 Celsius.
Yeah true. Not sure if there is anything that is technically flammable in liquid form as fire needs oxygen to fuel it. Reason why sci-fi stuff can get annoying when they have fires just magically burning in space like where is the oxygen coming from? The interior of a ship or space station yes that makes sense. In the emptiness void of space? Yay space magic fires hah
Anything that’s an oxidizer could theoretically burn in space, as they produce lots of readily available oxygen. Guess what lithium batteries are! yaaaay
You’ve never dealt with a liquid fuel fire. Look it up. Once stuff gets hot reflash isn’t magic, it’s expected.
Yeah, once you heat anything to autoignition temp, it’ll reignite. That’s just basic physics.
Yeah I probably didn’t word my response the greatest I am not the most sciencey type person when explaining stuff even though I have worked both in chemical engineering and particle physics fields haha. But guess I was getting at when it comes to a vehicle being on fire there normally is much less chance of a ICE vehicle reigniting after the fire has been put out vs an EV at least with current tech and methods of putting out the fires but who knows with the battery tech changing and research being done everyday batteries could be more safe in the events of fires.
Also I am lucky I have never had to deal with a liquid fire that is reigniting while I had worked in oil research but then again there are a lot of safety systems in place to prevent things like that from happening.
Oh I fully believe we’ll figure it out either through better extinguishing methods or better battery chemistry, we’re just in the evolution stage. This is like when we discovered asbestos.
Mrs Krabappel and Principal Skinner were in the closet making babies and I saw one of the babies and the baby looked at me.
When you quote Ralphie Wiggum, you have won the debate.
It seemed to match, on a coherency level, what comes out of Trump on the regular.
Think you’re safe from the Wrath of Con just because you’re all the way over there in Oz? Just remember, fat shit floats.
This is why we should outlaw laser beams for sharks. Dr. Evil knew what he was talking about. I think we should look VERY STRONGLY at outlawing lasers for sharks. I certainly hope that America doesn’t see this as a “wedge issue”, but it is a definite concern that we can’t just ignore…
You are completely overlooking the Constitutional rights of sharks to bear laser beams on their heads if they so choose. Why should all sharks suffer just because a small minority of them can’t wear them responsibly? Laser beams don’t kill people, sharks kill people! Oh, wait…
I have yet to see a shark abuse the Shark Jewish Space Laser.
Give em a break, they deserve it.
I’m glad that my favorite automotive website is applying SCIENCE to the hard questions posed by the nearly-incoherent ramblings of one of the two people who may run the US executive for the next four years.
I appreciated how deftly he avoided any tone of judgement whatsoever in the piece. Honestly, aside from the source of the query and the tweet quoting it, this would be standard-issue “what if/would you rather” Torch.
I am not afraid of electric boats or sharks. Gasoline fumes and gasoline fires are an actual threat on boats.
It just boggles my mind that a large segment of the US voters worships this guy and cannot wait to vote for him, again.
The vast majority of sharks aren’t going to attack you under any circumstances anyway. So both of Trump’s dangers there are entirely imaginary. Sticking to his usual MO, then.
I would just jump the shark!
Good thing we have a very stable genius asking the hard hitting questions. Surely the entire e-boating populace of America can rest easy now that their deepest and most pressing concerns have been addressed.
Both of them are very pleased I am sure.
Jump off the boat on the side away from the shark so he swims into the electric field trying to eat you and gets zapped.
Where’s my dang presidential nomination?
Bonus: shark steaks!
That sounds like it could be the part of the plot of a Jaws remake. Damn now I just gave them crappy ideas to destroy another great movie with a remake.
You have my vote!
You don’t get that for having played the NES jaws game.
The really funny thing is that the final solution in most shark attack movies is to blow up a liquid fuel container in or near the shark. It’s almost as if highly concentrated sources of energy are inherently dangerous when abused. 😉
The fact that two semi-coherent idiots who are each about 150 years old is the best that two parties can supposedly come up with, suggests to me that no one takes the job of president seriously any longer, or no one is really all that interested in the job.
Vote for pretty much anyone else, it doesn’t matter anyway.
If age is a concern to you, there are a pair of blatantly corrupt septuagenarians on the Supreme Court who could conceivably be replaced in the next administration. Seems like a compelling reason to vote to me.
Just how far right do you have to be that Trump isn’t right wing enough for you? Right wing enough to encourage people to vote for the, ahem, alternative candidates, evidently.
There is no better option for the US than Biden, given that the only other real option is Trump, who is very obviously far worse in every way.
Just trying to figure out what in my comment would have ever made you think I was far right wing.
Whatever you think my politics are, you are more than likely wrong, and anyway it’s inappropriate to get into it any further here, so I will not entertain any further replies.
You think Biden is as bad as Trump, so clearly you’re nutwing-right at the very least, but you don’t support Trump, so clearly you’re further right than the most right-wing MAGA nuts.
You said exactly what the far-right ‘vote for alternatives [who love Hitler]’ types always say.
Whatever you think your politics are, you’re more than likely lying to yourself.
Or less right wing? Or just disagree with stuff at a policy level? SO many other possibilities here, man. Calm down…
Here here and dilly dilly. Again the extreme’s people go to when someone disagrees with their views. This is a website for vehicles and if I wanted to see extreme political takes I would got over to X formally known as Twitheads
There’s nothing extreme about it. The simple reality is that the only two types of people who aren’t going to vote for Biden are people who want Trump to get in, and those further to the right than Trump nuts.
You’re calling everyone a Trump nut that you disagree with and proclaiming you’re not extreme.
Ok…
No, I’m calling people who can’t see that it’s unacceptable to allow Trump to win the election Trump nuts. Because, they are. This really isn’t hard to understand. This is not a normal situation. Trump is not a normal candidate.
No-one less right wing than Trump-nuts would suggest it’s a reasonable thing to do to not vote for Biden. Even people who are staunch Republicans in ordinary times know that it’s necessary to vote for Biden when the alternative is the lying orange pants-shitter.
I mean, I can’t vote for Biden because of large disagreements in policy with the direction he sees for the country and overall areas of incompetence I see in his administration.
I also can’t vote for Trump due to many things you’ve mentioned that I agree with. But I certainly disagree with you that someone has to abandon what they believe in because of the doom and gloom you see in what happens if Trump is elected.
For me and myself, I am just sitting it out. In part due to the all or nothing attitudes that seem so pervasive today. This election is not going to be more or less important than others and we will not fall off a cliff if either one is elected. It will be ok and the world will continue on its flat, linear march through time.
Not voting for Biden will let Trump in, so it’s the same as voting for Trump.
Math doesn’t work like that.
1+1 = banana you cannot change my mind
One half of a banana + one half a banana = banana.
Reality works like that. If you don’t vote against Trump, he will win. You can tell yourself whatever you like, as long as you get down to the polling station and vote against him.
I no longer support that way of looking at the world. If everyone wants my participation, they will start nominating reasonable people I can vote for. I will no longer waste my time voting to keep someone out or vote against one side or the other.
You fear Trump and others like him? Fine, nominate someone reasonable I can support at least in part.
No, it doesn’t. But “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
In 2016 I decided to vote for Gary Fucking Whatever his name was because I couldn’t pull the lever for either major party candidate. I regret that decision every day. Sometimes I shudder to think what a Hillary administration would look like, but shit… look where we’re at now.
Funny thing is there was a chance in 2016 for Gary Johnson if he would have won his home state and there wasn’t enough electoral votes to pick Hilary or Trump because then they would have to had to pick from the three candidates who was going to be president. Which neither party was going to select the opposites parties candidate so Gary could of just been the well since he isn’t either party I guess we will pick him. So I wouldn’t regret your vote there. If more people went against the norm and for change maybe things would actually change.
“If more people went against the norm and for change maybe things would actually change.”
That’s what I used to think back then and was part of my reasoning for doing so. I no longer believe that will ever happen, and I do believe that stopping that train wreck from reaching the highest office in the land is more important right now.
I typically throw my votes away to the Libertarians every election so I get where you’re coming from. But I don’t think they had voting in mind when they were saying good men need to do something.
Now I just figure a better use of my time is to stay home and enjoy whatever time I have on the Earth being with family or whatever. Even watching TV is better than standing in line with a bunch of angry people just to throw it away on a party that doesn’t actually want to win an election.
It sounds like we’ve both reached truly miserable levels of cynicism. We’re just expressing it differently. I’ve learned to ignore most of the crap this world has to offer, but I can’t ignore this one. Thankfully it won’t be long before both candidates are dead and I can go back to ignoring politics completely again.
You want cynicism?
I have thought a lot about how my life personally changes when one party or another is in power. It’s minimal. My life doesn’t really change much.
Why get so worked up? I also think that the parties are specifically creating these situations where every election is the most important ever and they crank up the cultural warfare social machinery to get us all upset and then one side always thinks the world is ending. I just can’t participate in that.
.
I mean, voting isn’t the exercise in individualism you’re making it out to be. It appears neither of them really appeals to you and that’s fine. But do you not care about what happens to those around you depending on the outcome? Especially the ones less fortunate than you? Do you think both outcomes will be the same for racial minorities, women, queer folk, or the poor? C’mon.
I’m far-left for european standards, and in a vacuum I find Biden abhorrent. It wouldn’t cross my mind not voting for him with what’s at stake if I was american.
I think that given how impermanent the election cycles really are, and how much is actually accomplished there isn’t a lot of realistic difference.
But it also comes down to what exactly will be done for the less fortunate or minorities? What might be done against them? Typically very little in both instances. Most of the hand-wringing that happens is over what is said rather than what is done.
And the one issue I see most damaging to our country and that threatens it more than any other is the $30+ trillion in debt we’re carrying. Once the interest on that debt grows to take over more and more of the annual budget I think we’re in big trouble so I don’t worry about much of what you mention at the federal level as these will be worked out in the court system. But nobody is even going to talk about debt and deficits, only what else we need to spend on to help one group or another.
You’re literally in the country where having Trump allowed the foreseeable future to become really fucking scary for many women with the overturning of Roe v. Wade. Do you prefer that republicans get another shot stacking the SCOTUS with even more authoritarian scumbags?
If you really don’t see the ramifications of one choice or the other I can’t really explain it.
It’s a situation where I have to decide which, among many, issues are most important.
The RvW decision is one where I side with the Democrats. Philosophically I also see the point that states really have that power but I’m still sad it was overturned.
I also don’t think that issue is nearly as important in the grand scheme as others.
When you sit in the middle and agree with both sides on various issues, you just have to choose which ones are most important.
If Democrats get back in power they should work to make RvW a law which is really the best way.
People around you aren’t simply the grand scheme of things, they’re also people. Looking at a 5-decade setback in basic human rights for over half the population as not important is something I can’t comprehend. What percentage of the population does it have to affect to count as “grand scheme of things”?
It’s not that I’m saying people don’t count. I honestly don’t want to say that.
I cannot support one side of the political arena for a singular issue. I can’t ignore that I fundamentally disagree with the foundation of one side in most of the issues they support just because these things are happening.
Also, these issues are nuanced despite the rhetoric. There are legitimate reasons RvW was overturned, even if I think it was a terrible decision.
Again, when you are conflicted between the parties on various issues it’s tough but I can’t support any one side based on a singular issue.
I’m incapable of reconciling both parts of that sentence.
It actually is in the constitution that the powers not outlined specifically in the constitution for the federal government shall be left to the states.
I disagree with overturning the ruling based on the “previous rulings” guideline for the courts, but strictly speaking the role of deciding the legality of medical procedures is really a state issue if you want to read how the laws governing our country are based.
I personally believe that women should be allowed to make this choice on their own and I would vote for that in my state. I would have been more happy if they just left it alone at the Supreme Court as well.
So, that is how you can see both sides of an issue. Things are nuanced. Not everything has to be us vs them, good vs evil. Someone may disagree with you but not be a monster. There are more than two angles to view the situation etc.
I get it. The issue is super emotional. I would be very emotional if someone I knew was going through this. But I don’t think that is a great place to make policy decisions.
That’s one way of putting State’s Rights ahead of Human Rights.
Also, you can care a lot about things even if they’re not in any way personal to you. American reality is not my reality, and here I am worried about childen in the bible belt being forced to carry their rapist’s baby to term.
Yeah people seem to put a lot of weight into the presidential elections yet they vote for the same people in house/Senate over and over again thinking things will change. Maybe if those people were not career politicians, had term limits and actually had to fight for your vote by doing their job more things would change but it always seems like more of the same. Seems every presidential election is “if you vote in candidate xyz we are doomed” but we are not we are here with more of the same.
Teach me your ways, enlightened one. Did you forget this wasn’t the CNN comment section? I’ve only seen this level of fallacious reasoning, holier than thou-ness, and MENSA level fart sniffing there.
Another MAGA nut, or worse. This really isn’t hard. Anyone even vaguely socially acceptable will vote Biden, because the alternative is off-the-wall unacceptable.
I just took it as you being fed up with the situation in general. I too find myself shaking my head and thinking it doesn’t matter. It’s a really sad state we find ourselves in these days.
You got it.
Same I didn’t take this as them being a crazy right winger but yeah sad that if you have any minor disagreements nowadays you are labeled xyz because of views you may have why I said over in the USPS one I try and not discuss politics with people nowadays because things are taken to the extremes and is it sad be nice to have some nice calm conversations.
Yeah, I don’t come here for political discourse either. I have said before, and I continue to believe, that most people agree on more than they disagree on. It’s nice to have some social interaction where politics isn’t at the forefront. I think this site does a good job of presenting things pretty neutrally and I would like to keep it that way.
Same here reason why I really started disliking the old site, besides the writers leaving who are all here now, pretty much is it just seemed to be turning into a political hell hole. I come here for stories like this with the science behind vehicles, stories about David’s hoopties (though he has matured and has less hoopties now), Mercedes fleet of vehicles, shit box show down and the mad ramblings of Jason and so on. But it seems when Tesla, EV’s and certain other topics are brought up some political views come out a little bit to much and people really need to take a breather.
I already dipped my toe in that water over on the USPS thread. It wasn’t productive.
It was quite productive. With a bit of prodding, you showed everyone what you really believe, and why you’d said what you said initially.
hey, DaveDave, we try to keep things relatively civil here and not attack others. Please take about 10% off there, chief, or find another place to squabble.
Sure, the problem is people responding to provocative comments, not the provocative comments.
I’d far rather this site banned all political comments, but if you’re not going to do that, it’s a bit much to complain about people being offended by the things you tolerate.
Well, sometimes politics intersect with cars and I don’t want to have a blanket ban on reasonable discussion, but I don’t think there’s a lot to be gained by railing on other people, which is something we try NOT to do.
You can walk into a Waffle House and loudly proclaim that the Michael Rappaport season of Justified is the worst season of the show, and you would not be wrong, but also it’s kinda not the time or place to do that.
If you can’t disagree with someone without calling them a nut then please find the nearest portal to a Waffle House and jump in it. Just because you and I seemingly agree on some things, politically, doesn’t mean that it’s going to fly here any more than if we disagreed.
Man, somebody had to bring Justified into the conversation.
Explain to me what accent Rappaport was trying to do? Why cast him?
Wait, I haven’t seen it. He doesn’t do a nasally whiny Queens tough-guy wannabe accent? huh. Didn’t know he had that kinda range, lol
No, it’s a weird sort of southern accent, I guess? I think his season is the weakest (not counting “City Primeval”), but the weakest season of Justified still beats the best of far too many other shows.
It was a cartoon version mix of Georgia, Louisiana and maybe touch of Mississippi thrown in. My guess is someone asked him to create the generic accent that can’t be identified but gives an impression of “southern.”
We need to know where you’re from without being able to identify it.
Thanks for this Matt. Also you just reminded me I need to watch Justified me and the fiance just got through watching Deadwood (still need to watch the movie) and Olyphant is such a great actor.
It’s definitely one of my favorite shows. Olyphant is awesome, but Walton Goggins’ Boyd Crowder (one of my favorite villains of all time) is equally fantastic and the interactions between them are gold and not overdone. The dialog throughout is top notch.
You’re also telling everyone on this site what is and is not acceptable in the dialog and in all life as it exists in this country as though you are somehow the absolute arbiter of what is right and wrong.
People can disagree. People can discuss differences. You can listen to what they might have to say about an issue without making proclamations that their views are somehow destroying the country.
Isn’t this why we are in the situation we are in though? We just keep sticking to the same parties and voting based on well at least they are not “insert opposite parties opponents name here”. I don’t feel either party aligns with my personal views and sick of seeing the hate between people because of political views. But even then back to electrocution vs shark debate. I will take the shark as not many people are killed by sharks per year and the fear of sharks was greatly exaggerated because of Jaws.
There are times to reform the way the Democrats and Republicans are run, and there are times when you have to vote for the boring, too-old establishment guy because the alternative is an incontinent orange kleptocrat and convicted felon, who once tried to stage a coup because he lost an election.
I met a guy who thought he was too left. Also thought women shouldn’t be allowed to vote, thought Hitler had the right idea, and was a flat-earther among other things. Probably the worst person I ever met.
One is running to keep himself out of prison, the other is running because apparently not a single soul in the other party is competent enough to defeat a semi-coherent idiot running to keep himself out of prison.
This sums up the situation better than anything else I’ve read. Well done.
Biden should not have ran. Almost any other candidate would have mopped the floor with the almighty orange one. RFK Jr. leads both candidates in polling in a 2-way race between himself and either of the others even though he’s a touch crazy.
A touch? I mean your core point still stands, either side is putting up arguably the only person who could possibly lose to their opponent.
To be clear, I would vote for a moldy ham sandwich that gets drunk and tells racist jokes at Thansgiving over Trump, so I’m not both-sidesing in my stance. I just am exasperated that it is still a tricky race to call.
Bat-shit crazy. Dementia-riddled and incoherent. Egomaniac and corrupt. Pick your poison. Choose wisely.
Those are all Trump, and also things Trump-nuts say about Biden which aren’t true. Your MAGA colours are on full display, however clever you think you’re being.
You must realize you are the exact same as the Trump nuts you speak of. Just on the opposite end of the spectrum.
Again, the kind of thing Trump nuts say when Trump’s flaws are pointed out – and again, with zero basis in fact.
Last warning.
Lol, “last warning” for Davedave, but not a peep to guys like Ottomottopean. Nice work, Matt.
All I can say is that there is NO FRICKEN WAY I would accept that job. If nominated I will not run. If elected I will not serve.
In The Stand, Steven King said something to the effect of “Nobody who would be great at that job would ever want to do it, and anybody who wants that job should probably be barred from having it.”
LOL. Steven King was paraphrasing a famous saying.
Blew my teenage mind, do you know the original quote?
That quote is from the story Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.
A more succinct quote is, “Any man who wants to be president is either an egomaniac or crazy.” – Dwight Eisenhower