Unsellable. That’s what my 2011 Nissan Leaf — a vehicle that I bought for $2000 and which only has about 30 miles of EV range (in the city) left due to a severely-degraded battery — seemed like. Who wants a car that can only reliably drive for 15 minutes on the highway before requiring a two-hour recharge? I was convinced I’d be stuck with this machine forever, and while I ultimately did manage to pawn the thing off, getting to that resolution was a nightmare.
When I moved to LA, I may have gone a bit overboard on the project cars, especially given that I really didn’t have an understanding of what my living/relationship/workload situation would be. I bought a Nash Metropolitan, a Nissan Leaf, a World War II Jeep, a Jeep Wrangler YJ, A Willys CJ-3B, a Pontiac Aztek, two BMW i3s, and… man I hope that’s all. My god that’s a huge list.
Needless to say, that’s too many cars, so I’m axing a few of them.
At Least I Got Some Content Out Of It
I already ditched the Jeep Cherokee Golden Eagle I brought from Michigan; now it was time to ditch the Leaf, which is basically a paperweight that has left me in a lurch — and even stranded — far, far too many times. Seriously, look at this misery.
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The Nissan Leaf was initially meant to donate its EV components to the World War II Jeep I bought for $85, but that project isn’t happening, and that Nissan Leaf is just sitting in the Galpin employee lot, taking up space. So it’s gotta go. I’m a little bummed I don’t have time for the EV swap, but at the same time, I’m happy with all the wacky content I got out of this thing, even if hundreds of thousands of anti-EV extremists used it as fodder for their anti-ev rants:
Heck, this crappy Leaf even got me on Fox News!:
Selling This Car Online Was A Nightmare
I bought the Leaf about a year ago for $2000. My power company gave me a $1000 rebate under the condition that I keep the car for 20 months. I’ve sold it about 10 months in, meaning I’ll have to give back $500. So basically, I paid $1500 for the car. That’s what I wanted for the vehicle, but it didn’t quite happen. Honestly, the whole sale was a shitshow. Here’s my Facebook Marketplace listing (I’m sensitive to the fact that some of these folks likely just didn’t have the funds and needed a way to get to work; I wish them well):
Here’s my Offerup listing:
First off, there were the standard dumb-messages that have turned so much of thete internet into a deeply frustrating automotive marketplace. Lots of “Hi, is this available?” messages with no reply and lots of people offering to pay a sum significantly less than what I was asking:
One guy tried pulling the “It’s gonna cost me INFINITY dollars to fix that fender” classic bargaining card:
Lots of people made offers but never came through:
But mostly, what I noticed was a lack of understanding, not just about how EVs work, but also about how rebates work. This guy asked me if he could drive to Vegas. I made it very, very clear that he cannot.
This person just didn’t know how the used EV rebate worked:
d
Then there was my conversation with Teniesha, who seemed legitimately interested until I actually talked out of buying my car!:
I had to be honest, here. Teniesha lives in Long Beach, and her poor daughter is about to get a car for college — and that car is going to be a vehicle that can maybe do 30 miles of EV range with the AC off and driving super carefully (35 if she’s a master efficient-driver)? And once the car is dead, it takes two hours to charge just to get you back to 30 miles of range? Forget about it. I was feeling sorry for her already, and I just couldn’t saddle that poor child with this dastardly machine.
I Finally Sold It, But Even That Wasn’t Easy
In the end, I only felt comfortable selling the car to a man named Richard, and that’s because he’s already owned a Nissan Leaf with a degraded battery, so I figured he knew what he was in for. He wanted the car for his daughter, who had recently gotten into a crash in her own low-range Leaf; Richard was happy with its crash performance.
He even sent me a video of a Nissan Leaf owner showing how much range the guess-o-meter shows when fully charged. He asked me to take a similar video so he had an idea of how badly the battery was degraded.
I sent Richard a video of me showing what range the dashboard indicated at full charge, and he responded with:
I told him it could, but only if you drove carefully; to make sure he was 100% onboard, I recorded me driving over 25 miles:
Richard wanted to buy my car, and after his initially $1,200 offering, then $1,400 offering, he agreed to $1,500. He then asked me this:
I was so desperate to get rid of this paperweight, I agreed to meet him halfway between where the car was, Van Nuys, and where he lives, Hesperia — 100 miles away. I told him I could meet him in San Dimas, which was appropriate because Dimas sounds like “dumbass,” which I was for suggesting this.
Richard hadn’t even demanded it, but again, my desperation meant I would do almost anything just to get rid of the car without losing too much money (I am, after all, a cheap bastard).
We were to meet at 7:45 AM in San Dimas, which meant I had to leave Van Nuys — where the car was parked — at 5:45 on a Sunday morning. I could drive 30 miles (which would take an hour on surface streets) to Pasadena, then charge the car halfway for about a half an hour, then drive another 30 minute to San Dimas. All in, it would take me two hours.
Of course, that didn’t work out as I planned. Because of the uphill grade, the Leaf only just made it to Pasadena roughly 24 miles away, and then I couldn’t for the life of me find a fast charger since nobody uses CHAdeMO plugs anymore, meaning I had to use regular level-2 J1772 chargers. This normally wouldn’t be a huge issue except — and this blew my mind when I found out — the Leaf can only charge up to 3.3 kW with a J1772 charger. That’s glacial.
That’s literally 10 miles of range per hour. I needed 20 miles in 30 minutes.
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In the end, I messaged Richard and asked him to drive from San Dimas to Pasadena to pick up his car with his trailer. I lopped $100 off my $1,500 price, but finally — after over a month on the market for under two grand — the Leaf was gone. And with it, so were the headaches.
It would make a perfect golf car for the neighborhood. lol. 30 miles goes a long way. Way better than a $6000 golf cart.
you didn’t include our conversation 🙁
me: is it still available?
you: yes
me: not surprised
There’s always donating it or trading it in, if you really just need a car gone.
I don’t know, 30 miles of range should cook a lot of pancakes.
Does it come with a bun warmer?
Glad you’re rid of that POS!
Honestly David, for me this can be easily chalked up to pure self-inflicted misery. This could have been sold for scrap and you would be done w/it. I know, I know, there’s no story if you do that and it’s kind of your schtick but.. you can really easily avoid all of these problems.
Ain’t a schtick. I’m way too cheap to sell this thing for scrap. $1400! I can buy an XJ for that!
I wish there were decent XJ’s for $1400 around here. Must be nice living in the land of sunshine instead of the rustbelt.
I didn’t say “decent” lol
Hahahaha
Well in that case..
I’ve taken to responding to the, “What’s the lowest you will take” people with, “What’s the most you will pay”. That tends to anger them and/or shut them up.
I like that. I will be stealing it.
I mean, it’s honest. That’s what the whole haggling song-and-dance is about. But people don’t want to cut to the chase.
Mostly I just open with: “You’re asking $1,000. What’s the lowest you’d be satisfied with?”
Like the response to the car salesmen I’ve developed after working at a dealership when they ask “what’ll it take to put you in this baby today?”
Well……
My favorite Marketplace/Craigslist thing is “I’ll go $xxx…CASH” as if I’d take their check or something.
Listen, this flash drive totally has $300k worth of bitcoin on it, I’m just holding it for a friend who just wants to be rid of it. I’m doing you a huge favor!
David, this is hilarious and also pretty rough, buddy. I feel like you kind of trolled yourself from begging to end with this whole Leaf thing. I’d stick with rusty jeeps, honestly. Not because i dont like EVs, but because you seem to insist on vehicles that are basically lawn sculptures.
Also, Richard, wherever you are….Really??? $1400?!?!?!?!
sorry for yelling
I agree.
Welcome to selling anything on the internet, where lowballers and time wasters abound.
When selling a specific car that has some followers, post it on their facebook groups first, you will narrow your buyers for someone that may want spare parts or the same vehicle again to add to the collection. If that doesn’t work, I would just put a For Sale sign on my car and put it outside and wait. Facebook marketplace with random interactions will be my last resource.
I’m an old fart and couldn’t dream of crawling under a vehicle anymore except for a dollar bill. Wrenching days thankfully gone to the land of bad knees. If I want aggravation, there’s always politics and doctors’ advice. Priorities had better sharpen before you are plagued with an insurmountable mountain of projects. Good luck.
Why not have the battery replaced?
Is this not feasible?
If it isn’t then this is a serious problem.
Same reason you don’t replace the engine in a cheap beater. The car is a parts car.
It’s not financially feasible. I don’t know how much a Leaf battery costs, but I strongly suspect that it is very close to the value of a Leaf with a newly replaced battery.
Batteries can be replaced (I have seen replacement batteries for as low as $4,000). Most people don’t replace the battery because it is cheaper/easier to buy a different Leaf. It is easy to find a Leaf with 80+% of its original range for under $5,000.
Realistically, most people don’t replace these batteries because modern EVs with 2-3x the range are becoming affordable. Why spend $4,000+ to fix a car with 60 miles of real world range and no fast charging capability (working CHAdeMo ports are almost impossible to find) when you can buy a Bolt for $9k? Battery replacement will be more common in the future when the capabilities of a 12 year old EV and a 2 year old EV are similar.
I can’t believe you had the nerve to ask more than $100 for this used up piece of shit. These aren’t Jeeps David. No one wants broken and abused Leaf with no range left. It has broken my heart as a long time Autopian subscriber to see how California has ruined you. Being a Texan, fear strikes my heart every time I see another California tag on my free ways. Please don’t ruin Texas Cally transplants! Leave your budget breaking Liberal ass views in the state you just ruined voting them in!!!!! David, get back to Jeeps, rust, shower spaghetti, and leave Cally as soon as you can before there is no hope for you. Donate that Leaf to cars for kids and get a tax charity refund, you’ll be better off.
What?
Because I bought a shitbox EV? I also just bought a 1954 Willys CJ-3B. I own a YJ, a J10, and two ZJs. In fact, I just got a call from the Galpin lot manager telling me I have too many cars and need to stop wrenching on them on company property.
California has done nothing to me.
Nope, it made you lose your edge. Sorry. Just being honest. You are still one of my favorite car writers, though. I like your I3. An I8 is one of my dream cars. Ask Matt for a raise and buy one of those!
Well, I’m his boss (so he’d technically have to get my approval for a raise).
I would like an i8, too. They’re awesome, but JT and I decided early on not to pay ourselves nearly as much as other editorial directors in this industry, as the long-term wellbeing of the company and its employees is #1.
You should definitely ask Matt then, seems like a strong hand for salary negotiations. See if he’ll throw in a jet ski.
David, if you’re ever tired of Cali feel free to move to Texas. We generally approve of folks driving vehicles old enough to have been comparison shopped with horses, and the government will have to pry the keys to our Kei trucks from our cold, dead fingers.
Haha, the STRONGEST hand. lol
I’m a big fan of Texas. My brother lives in Austin, and I enjoy visiting him. Cheap gas, lots of space for wrenching, no rust, good barbecue… don’t have to ask me twice!
Just gotta hope it doesn’t get cold so your power grid doesn’t fail, and dozens of your fellow Texans die this year. You can always escape to Cancun with your Senator!
OK, gonna give you that one because its true. We Texans actually like Cruz being gone, he can’t mess stuff up when he’s away. Our other option was Beto, understand a Texans voting dilemma now?
If anything changed my wrenching lifestyle, it was not California, it was simply the new responsibilities. I’m telling you, California is a diverse place filled with some hardcore wrenchers just like Michigan is. And it’s not as liberal as you think! Like I said, there are people from all walks of life here!
Well come on down then! We welcome rusty Jeeps, and starting next year, no annual car inspections!
And yes, Kei cars are still able to get tagged. (Thats more of a Mercedes’ thing, though)
Like, I’m from Vermont, but I’m pretty sure it’s “Cali.”
Other than that your whole perspective on life and the universe makes perfect sense, and you made cogent arguements that are zero percent confusing.
Go back to carscoops with your moronic views
Go back to mommy’s basement asshat
Ruined? No, my man is evolving – he’s transforming. He might make some bad moves even ones that you or I won’t like! How has he become ruined? As an Australian I don’t understand – is this a political anti California thing – I think your rant is more about you than DT.
It is; people get weird about California.
People also hate NY irrationally. Maybe because it is a blue state and NYC is pretty much the financial capitol of the US. NJ deserves all the hate they get…. (jk. I have been to NJ a couple times and it was enjoyable)
California is such a terrible state which is why it’s the most populated state in America and all startups go there for the talent. Oh wait….. yeah the anti California thing is just plain weird.
California has one thing going for it; climate. It *was* great, but a couple of decades on one party rule has led to: $68Billion in debt, due to: The Cronyville Express, a “high speed” rail project, projected to cost $135B more than the original, voter approved $8B., free health care for illegal aliens invading the state, squatter camps for over half of the nation’s “homeless” drug addled freeloaders, and more giveaway programs than you can shake a stick at.
California also believes it can save the world with boutique blend fuel that cost 79¢ to $1.25 more than the national average. They also have pledged to prohibit gasoline powered cars by 2035, and Diesel trucks by 2036, a ruling by the unelected California Air Resources Board. They also banned new gasoline powered lawn equipment starting this year. I don’t want to write a novel, but it’s easy to see how the rest of the country view California as the land of nuts ????.
Good thing you don’t live in California so none of this affects you right? I’m pretty happy with no more gas powered lawn equipment since anywhere you’ll be going will have a power outlet anyways.
A power outlet that is un-powered. If the wind blows, the power is shut off. If it’s hot, power is rationed (please turn off your AC). There’s a reason I have a gas powered generator to keep the water running and the lights on. We pay the highest electricity rates in the continental U.S. We also have the highest gas tax in the U.S. We are the Hati of the U.S.
BTW, commercial truck operators were forced by CARB to repower w/ newer Diesel engines or just buy new trucks equipped with DEF and exhaust particulate filters 10 years ago. Surprisingly, only 64% of residents feel that California is “going the wrong way”.
Haven’t had to turn my AC off at all this summer. My electricity price is about the same as the rest of America as well so I don’t even notice it. Gas prices are also about the same as east coast right now so…. all these are invalid things to complain about. Maybe YOU should move out of California if you have so many things to complain about ;). Maybe move to Texas where theres no electricity if some heavy moisture is in the air or toll roads galore
If you live in California, the composite average rate is 29.49¢/kWh, 2nd only to Rhode Island (31.23 and Hawaii (44.28¢/kWh). In fact though, in the PG&E service area, most residential customers are on time of service rates where 4:00-9:00 PM the rate is 54¢/kWh. You know, when it’s hottest and you come home to cook dinner. Of course, California wants to ban gas stoves and heaters.
According to Gas Buddy, gas prices in the north east coast area are $3.20-$3.40/gal. California:$4.62/gal, 35% more. Even higher than Hawaii. Not anywhere near the same.
Amen, preach brother, preach!
Wow, I really struck some nerves! Tons of comments! Mostly bad, but hey Libbie’s, what ya gonna do but hate, that is your peace to the earth fake assed mantra. First off, I love everybody, Secondly, I’m neither R or D, I’m independent. I want in the middle politics like the good old days. David, you sold a golf cart with a roof and doors, maybe if you had advertised it as such with its shitty 30 mile range I wouldn’t have gotten mad to begin with. As far as me and Cali goes, as was pointed out to me as being the proper nick name for it goes….. I have several family members in both CA and CO of 40+ years seen their life ruined buy this liberal bullshit voting. When I bitch about Cali people moving here to TX, all I ask is be smart and vote in a way that won’t ruin the state you just left. And to that other A-hole commenter, yes, CA recruits the top talent from all over, and then, A-hole, they have them move to TX where they just left CA and moved their company headquarters to. All of you haters are more than welcome to go fuck yourselves. Probably will be the first action you’ve had in years!!!!! And David, I left my subscription because y’all lied to me. I’m still waiting for the article of your adventures living in an Aztec. Y’all got too big for your britches, went corporate, and lost a loyal subscriber
Wow, I really struck some nerves! Tons of comments! Mostly bad, but hey Libbie’s, what ya gonna do but hate, that is your peace to the earth fake assed mantra. First off, I love everybody, Secondly, I’m neither R or D, I’m independent. I want in the middle politics like the good old days. David, you sold a golf cart with a roof and doors, maybe if you had advertised it as such with its shitty 30 mile range I wouldn’t have gotten mad to begin with. As far as me and Cali goes, as was pointed out to me as being the proper nick name for it goes….. I have several family members in both CA and CO of 40+ years seen their life ruined buy this liberal bullshit voting. When I bitch about Cali people moving here to TX, all I ask is be smart and vote in a way that won’t ruin the state you just left. And to that other A-hole commenter, yes, CA recruits the top talent from all over, and then, A-hole, they have them move to TX where they just left CA and moved their company headquarters to. All of you haters are more than welcome to go fuck yourselves. Probably will be the first action you’ve had in years!!!!! And David, I left my subscription because y’all lied to me. I’m still waiting for the article of your adventures living in an Aztec. Y’all got too big for your britches, went corporate, and lost a loyal subscriber
Thanks for the cut and paste. I meant most of it makes sense but Where did I say I was a hater? and why do you feel so attacked that you have to be so abusive and defensive? You think California is Liberal? Wail till you hear about the free healthcare in the rest of the world!
Someone wanted it enough to pay $1500 and drive 50 miles for.
(Plus it looked like a fair bit of interest on marketplace, but who knows how many of those people were actually interested) (or were actually people and not bots)
If he had stated it is what it was, ummmmmm a fricken golf cart with doors and a solid roof, life would be good
First of all, it’s “Cali”
So… like… you gonna storm the capitol?
Sorry asshole, the general lee is having it’s confederate flag roof decal redone and the hemi rebuilt. Fuck off libby
I can’t even tell if you’re trolling or not anymore
Not sure why any Texan would have such an obsession about California. Yet there are plenty, especially the ones that come here for vacation and for traveling for work.
Oh, and most California transplants WANT to move there. They don’t want to change Texas. Most are from our “red” areas.
Wow, I really struck some nerves! Tons of comments! Mostly bad, but hey Libbie’s, what ya gonna do but hate, that is your peace to the earth fake assed mantra. First off, I love everybody, Secondly, I’m neither R or D, I’m independent. I want in the middle politics like the good old days. David, you sold a golf cart with a roof and doors, maybe if you had advertised it as such with its shitty 30 mile range I wouldn’t have gotten mad to begin with. As far as me and Cali goes, as was pointed out to me as being the proper nick name for it goes….. I have several family members in both CA and CO of 40+ years seen their life ruined buy this liberal bullshit voting. When I bitch about Cali people moving here to TX, all I ask is be smart and vote in a way that won’t ruin the state you just left. And to that other A-hole commenter, yes, CA recruits the top talent from all over, and then, A-hole, they have them move to TX where they just left CA and moved their company headquarters to. All of you haters are more than welcome to go fuck yourselves. Probably will be the first action you’ve had in years!!!!! And David, I left my subscription because y’all lied to me. I’m still waiting for the article of your adventures living in an Aztec. Y’all got too big for your britches, went corporate, and lost a loyal subscriber
Dang, it sounds like if you can’t handle other people’s opinions, you need a safe space.
Can’t believe his Leaf didn’t come with a factory installed ar 15 rack over the rack, what a sissy
Hold on, do people actually say Cally? WTF is that?
I worked with a guy who mentioned he was one of those marketplace lowballers. I’m like, why it’s so annoying but he said yeah but you do it to 100 different people and sometimes it works
We have all worked with assholes. It is part of working.
he was a pretty nice guy which made it all the more baffling to me but get your point
What percentage of the asking price is considered low-balling? As far as I’m concerned, Marketplace is a Turkish Bazaar and haggling is expected, usually baked into the price. I’ve had old laddies haggle over $20 items. As a buyer, if you have your max price and you’re making a legit offer I dont see the problem. I’ve taken 20-30% off something I just want gone.
When I’m selling something and someone offers half for a popular item, I just laugh it off and move on. When you type “NO LOWBALLERS” on an ad, you’re just inviting lowballers to fuck with you.
Ads that say “DONT WASTE MY TIME” or “NO TIRE KICKERS” I usually just pass up. What does that even mean anyways? No one is actively trying to waste time. SERIOUS BUYERS ONLY is like posting a KEEP OUT sign in hopes of keeping burglars out. It screams pain in the ass, short tempered seller.
I have sold more stuff of Faceclub marketplace than I care to. When I do, I usually try to price it pretty close to what I actually want for it, which is usually lower than most comparable items listed. I do this because the less amount of time I spend dealing with buyers the better. Without fail though, there are always people who will fight on price. I get it that you’re trying to get the best deal, but when that deal is already better than 95% of what you can get, just c’mon
I do that too. It makes things go a lot smoother. I get my unwanted stuff gone, some jingle in my pocket and the seller gets a deal.
Luckily I have come across some pretty decent people when I have sold stuff, especially the cars. Met a couple people that have connections to our family through work related relationships and were genuinely a pleasure to do business with. Just have to sift through a lot of crap to get to those people
If I’ve sunk to the level of using FB Marketplace to try and sell something, I’ve already priced it as low as I’ll go on it in order for it to get gone.
So, anything other than offering to come pick it up is low balling.
“I will not respond to ‘is this available’, send me a real question.”
Yeah, well, the only question I need answered is if it’s still available. Didn’t think of that, huh?
I tap the automated response in reply to those folks. The ones who put some effort into asking get a more personal reply.
I always assumed that was how they worked, they probably just low-ball everything and don’t even do some sort of flipper profit calculation on anything unless they get a bite.
It is still irritating, if I offer something for 5k and I get an offer of 3k I will respond back, “for you I will do 6k”
IIRC these early leafs are imminently hackable, which is good because of how trash the battery design is. You can more or less crack the controllers and inverter wide open and throw arbitrary batteries at them. I’ve had musings of tossing some Chevy Volt/Spark modules in one with glycol cooling and a diesel range extender to make a proto-i3.
That would be an interesting build but don’t you have that already from Uncle Rich?
The only way I’ve been behind the wheel of an EV was in a rental Kia EV6 used for a round trip from Chicago to Detroit.
I won’t say it was a nightmare, both me and my wife liked the vehicle. But charging it was far from ideal and the range dropped from the EPA est 310 miles (which would’ve covered a single trip singlehandedly) to around 250. Overall the whole round trip took me almost 2 hours more than if driving a gas or hybrid vehicle and I had to pay 1hr extra rental and a whole day of insurance when dropping off at Hertz. No bueno
Mind you, that EV6 is a latest generation EV with 235 kW charging speed (only managed up to 180), yet about half the chargers I found along the way were under 100kW and some of those only had 1 out of the 2 charging hoses enabled and more than once I had to wait in line.
What frustrated me the most was waiting on the Meijer at 8 mile rd for a 1st gen Chevy Bolt to charge on a 350kW EvGo charger while half a dozen 50kW chargers were unused and that poor thing wouldn’t do more than 30 or so kW. So I hooked up to one of those slower ones while one of these two 350kW chargers freed-up. Spoiler alert it wasn’t that Bolt.
Bottom line: Infrastructure is a deal breaker to get me into an EV and I’m not into Tesla vehicles. Maybe the massive switch to NACS chargers will improve things but I’m not going to be the guinea pig and I don’t have problem waiting a few more years.
Hertz? They’ll probably charge you for a tank of gas if they don’t report the car stolen.
I know right? This was unfortunately a last time decision as my Avis booking couldn’t be honored after their scanner had trouble processing my license and we were already behind schedule so we picked the nearest option around. And the vehicle availability was pretty much non-existent, otherwise an EV would’ve been far from my top choices for a trip.
I have done a round trip in a day from Chicago to Detroit and back with my EV without any problem. The problem isn’t the EV or the infrastructure, it is inexperience.
As an EV owner I have to disagree. Driving an ICE they could stop at any exit and fill up in a few minutes, never having to wait more than a couple minutes, and could pick any pump in the place. That’s an infrastructure problem.
EV Charging infrastructure is never, ever going to look like that. ICE energy infrastructure looks like that because close to 0% of vehicle owners can add energy to their vehicle at their homes. EVs have a different use case.
Maybe a bit of both. ABRP says a single 7-minute stop for that trip in an EV6. Even if that’s overly-optimistic, 2 hours seems like bit of an outlier.
Which EV?
Chevrolet Bolt
the other ones might have been in use when the bolt first arrived though to be fair
Non Tesla charging is a lot harder to use than Tesla charging. Rolling up to a Supercharger or my home charger just works. Even the free/cheap L2 charging I’ve used has been a bit of a hassle. Which app, do I have cell signal, does this network allow ChargePoint roaming, where’s my ChargePoint swipe tag?
I love how the Leaf screwed with your charging plans even on your final drive with it. Truly a POS.
Anytime I’m about to do something dumb (I.e. buy a project car that needs way too much work) and make the mistake of/right call by telling my dad he always pauses for a moment then says:
There’s a reason it’s that cheap.
Wish I’d listened to him the first twenty or thirty times :). But this is also how we learn, amirite?
The three problems with BEVs: 1. INFRASTRUCTURE 2. Cost 3. Resale value (investment). Everyone screams at range, but, if the infrastructure was there, then charging the bloody thing after 200miles wouldn’t be an issue, as there would be charging stations as often as a gas station. Still wouldn’t want to take it cross country with the charging times, but that will be resolved over time (better batteries or supercapacitors). BEVs are WAY too expensive because they are specialty vehicles, at least right now. Finally, there’s no value if you want to sell one in two years or more.
The problem is that you can’t fix one of these without fixing the other two. This is the paradox. No one is going to build out infrastructure until there’s enough cars (in “Middle America” or anywhere else…). The cost won’t go down until there’s scale to fall back on, and they won’t be trustworthy without a long pattern of reliability and limited range reduction to sell it to the next sucker…I mean family member.
I would agree that Hybrids, plug in hybrids specifically, are the bridge we need, but I fear that we’ve already gone too far burning dinosaur juice already, and quick action is really needed at this point. These are all economic issues, honestly, so…let’s remove the money and put government to work the way its supposed to…you know, serving the people…
I would say selling the car for $100 less than you paid for is not a bad outcome, taking into account all the content and learning that came out of it!
Quick note about used EV rebates and private sales. I recommend using KeySavvy. For a small fee (buyer pays) they act as an escrow between buyer and seller. The great thing is that they are a dealer, and they technically buy the car from you and sell it right away to the other party. This means that the buyer gets access to the federal rebate even for a transaction between private parties. I have used them myself and the process was extremely easy.
“the Leaf can only charge up to 3.3 kW with a J1772 charger”
That’s the same charging rate as my 2017 Ford C-Max Energi!!!
Incidentally, my C-Max has about 25 miles of EV range if I take it easy… but that’s okay since it’s a hybrid.
And on my last tank, I went a little over 1800km.
I was actually hoping you’d turn your Leaf into a project where you do a DIY battery pack swap. If you can swap engines and transmissions like you did in the past, then you should be able to swap out a Nissan Leaf battery.
Yes, 15 year old EV designs are non-optimized
Dude. They wrote a song about this.
https://youtu.be/K8UV7SAhvG4
Marketplace sucks when selling a functional car, much less one with such big caveats.
I recently sold my wife’s former car, a 2016 Mazda CX-5, to my friend who offered $1,000 under KBB Private Party purely because A.) he needed a work commuter and knew the CX-5’s history as it was mine, and B.) I didn’t want to mess with Facebook marketplace weirdos.
Could I have gotten a little more for it by selling it to a stranger? Maybe. Would it have been worth it to deal with the constant “Is this available?” messages? No.
Is this available?
Yes!
Interesting, I own a 2011 Volvo C30 T5, same year as your Leaf, and I can still go 350 miles on a single tank of gas. (24 MPG average)
Can you see why most people don’t embrace EV’s?
EV’s have a long way to go before middle America will even consider them.
The Leaf didn’t exactly help with EV perception. Honestly, neither did the early i3. Hopefully my $30,000 i3 sheds that image!
Well it certainly will be better than the leaf, but you will still suffer from some lost battery capacity, and as a result, lower vehicle range which isn’t something that one experiences with an ICE vehicle as it ages.
So true. I’m curious exactly HOW MUCH better the newer cells will age.
(But you’re right; certainly not better than an ICE over time!)
Ev’s are an emerging technology. (specifically battery technology) and It will get better over time. In the meantime, it’s ICE or Hybrid, for middle America and as for me, I leased a Hybrid and it was an overall satisfying experience but it was plagued with recalls ( 2014 Ford Fusion Titanium Hybrid)
I am so glad that I leased it!
I am curious what you would consider acceptable in terms of range and battery degradation before middle America would buy an EV.
To me it would be on par with the loss of efficiency/range of an ICE vehicle as it ages, which, for an ICE vehicle is rather nominal compared to current BEV battery losses. But again, I realize that BEV battery technology is in it’s infancy.
So my point is that I don’t have to replace my ICE when it’s 10 years old to achieve the same range that I achieved when it was new. An ICE loss of efficiency may be 10% at 10 years old, 150K miles.
There are now a number of Tesla EVs that have racked up hundreds of thousands of miles on their original battery packs. There definitely has been some loss of range (on the order of around 10% per 100k miles), but if you think about it, it’s pretty rare for any ICE vehicle to make it past 200k miles, so you might say most ICE vehicles have no range at all at that point. And of those that actually make it to 200k miles, a fair few are not on their original engine and/or transmission.
From my small sample size, I’ve had 2 Honda Civic SIs go over 250k miles. The disappointing part was, they both consumed oil from day one. But, they both mere on the original engine. Both required one clutch replacement. My other cars were replaced after 120k miles ± because I tired of them, got wrecked or the use case changed. Currently, the BMW is on 104k miles and I intend to drive it as long as I can.
I don’t know if that’s a practical goal for a battery, I have a 60 year old car with its original engine, transmission, gas tank and fuel pump that still gets the same mpg it did new, and therefore also the same range from a full tank. Holding any battery to that standard is probably unrealistic, but maybe 20 years/250,000 miles with zero degradation could be achievable with newer battery chemistry and management systems. Realistically, that will be fine for virtually all car buyers and will take care of the 2nd and 3rd used owners as well
It’s not a question of better cells. It’s a question of better battery management.
Did you know that the vast majority of early Tesla Model S vehicles STILL have their original packs?
https://insideevs.com/news/659263/less-than-2-percent-electric-cars-had-battery-replaced/
The difference between the early Model S and the early Nissan Leaf is Tesla put real effort into the battery management system while Nissan did some shameful corner-cutting.
I just sold my 2014 Tesla Model S, still using the original battery. I had the pack thoroughly tested by a company called vsNEW right before selling. Degradation was 12%.
My current Bolt EV and i3 REX (both from 2017) have negligible degradation. To the point that with both of them I am getting real world range above EPA estimates when driving conservatively.
Battery degradation is real and can be improved, but many EVs being sold now will already be outlived by their battery packs.
How many miles on your Tesla S?
The Tesla was right under 100K when tested. Both the Bolt and the i3 are currently at around 85K.
That’s awesome. I really only need about 50 miles of range with my i3’s range extender, so unless my battery drops by 66%, I’m all good in this lifetime.
Until you move up into the Bird streets or down to Laguna, that is. 🙂
“lower vehicle range which isn’t something that one experiences with an ICE vehicle as it ages.”
Unless the fuel tank gets rusty and develops a leak. Or the O2 sensors go and the engine starts running rich all the time causing the MPGs to plummet. Or if the automatic choke gets stuck in the ‘on’ position on your old carb’d vehicle. Or if you have a vacuum leak like my dad’s old 1982 Grand Marquis had before we got rid of it. The damn thing would eat through gas like it had an old big block V8 from the 1960s.
Which are all things that can be serviced, ( bad chokes, vacuum leaks, O2 sensors) at a reasonable cost that will restore the thermal efficiency of the ICE versus the cost of battery replacement of a BEV to restore range/efficiency.
It should be noted that battery packs are serviceable by varying degrees as well.
That’s fair, but there are many things that cannot be serviced at a reasonable cost to restore efficiency, such as worn piston rings, worn cylinder bores, worn valves, etc. There’s really very little on an EV in terms of “wear items”, relatively speaking.
The Lada Zhiguli had a carb until 2014
Well, that changes everything. The Lada Zhiguli is a veritable coelacanth of a car.
https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/coelacanths-the-fish-that-outdid-the-loch-ness-monster.html
There are literally hundreds of thousands of EVs in “middle America”.
And there are literally Millions and Millions of ICE vehicles in Middle America. EV’s still remain a small percent of the automotive population in Middle America.
But that isn’t your point. Hundreds of thousands of people in “middle America” have already adopted EVs. Meanwhile you are suggesting people “won’t even consider” an EV because David’s one example of a 15 year old design is crapped out…
The Leaf if a terrible, half-assed BEV. It’s not a proxy or good reason why people don’t embrace EVs.
Hell… Your reasoning can be used against ICE vehicles… The Ford 3.8L engine constantly blew headgaskets and the Ford PowerShift transmission was unfixable… THEREFORE WE SHOULD GO BACK TO STEAM CARS!!!
Without a doubt, the Leaf was a low effort BEV.
Bingo
Doble or GTFO
My experience with iPhones and battery powered construction tools tells me that the “gas tank” shrinks as the battery ages/is cycled. The fuel tank on a ICE doesn’t (barring dropping the tank on a rock while off-roading).